[9_LEE]

Hello All,

Lee here, and I know I rarely post these days.. I’m afraid I’m working 7 days a week, around 10-12 hours a day trying to make a living dealing in pre-owned B&O. This doesn’t give me much time to enjoy the trials, tribulations and deliberations about the brand which true hobbyists and enthusiasts enjoy, but that’s life. I am truly sorry I am not around to add to the conversations.

I am posting this with regards to the Prize Draw, and I’ll explain why – and give you some background.

Back when I took over BeoWorld around 20 years ago I had a rapidly growing business, the boundless energy and enthusiasm of a man in his early 30’s, and more importantly Bang & Olufsen as a brand was really flying high. I had little overheads, and cash to burn – and I invested over £25,000 launching the ‘all new’ BeoWorld for everyone to enjoy. Things were great, times were good.

As I was getting so much B&O ‘through the door’ I thought it a great idea to share my success and love for the brand by creating a Prize Draw, every single month, giving away some quite frankly amazing prizes. There were many people on here questioning how on earth BeoWorld could afford this, and how it made no sense. Well… yes, it made no sense as I was contributing heavily via LifeStyle AV which was doing incredibly well. It made me truly happy inside to donate things to the Prize Draw, via my business, and help people all over the world enjoy the wonders of Bang & Olufsen ownership. Times were good.

BeoWorld, because of this, had lots of Gold Members – all keen to win these amazing Prizes. A years Gold Membership, TWENTY YEARS AGO, was £30. Even with lots of Gold Members we still didn’t make the numbers add up – even though I was buying the Prizes, but hey.

For many years we lost money on the Prize Draw. I just wrote it off and shrugged my shoulders. You do that when business is good and it makes your B&O ‘family’ on here happy.

Then, as more and more stores closed LifeStyle AV had to batten down the hatches. We ended up laying staff off as profits were nose-diving, and we took the decision to make the Prize Draw once every 3 Months. The £30 per year for Gold Membership didn’t change. It was a difficult decision and one which upset me, but I simply couldn’t afford to empty my pockets every month any more. Things had to change, and you were all very understanding. I thank you all for that.

Of course people decided that this wasn’t the ludicrously good value it used to be and didn’t renew their Gold Memberships. Obviously this resulted in a decline in revenue, and over time even a quarterly draw became a struggle. I ‘donated’ many items from my own personal B&O collection on many occasions to relieve the pressure on the BeoWorld bank account, and we managed to just about break even for a while.

Now, as more and more people drift away from the brand we have less and less Gold Members. It makes sense I suppose. Less stores, less advertising, less brand awareness and so on. This has made even a Quarterly Prize Draw a real struggle now. I have just purchased the prizes for the Spring Prize Draw and found the BeoWorld bank account was far short of what I’d paid for them and I’ve just put almost £500 of my own money into the ‘prize pot’. I genuinely cannot afford this right now.

Now, being a realist, I cannot see that in the next 3 months Bang & Olufsen will have a miraculous turnaround, create a worldwide storm, get 10,000 new members on BeoWorld with 10% of them joining as Gold Members and saving the day, thus making our Prize Draw the bumper bonanza of the past. Bang & Olufsen as a company are clearly struggling (the share price is down a massive 85% in the last 5 years), and we’re really down to a hard core of true enthusiasts on here. We truly appreciate you all. We really do.

So, what we have is a bit of ‘chicken and egg’ here – and this needs thinking about…. The more prize draws we had, with more prizes, the more paying members we had. The more we had to cut back on draws, the more members drifted away.

Things slowed down for B&O as a company, people started to leave the brand, and we made the Draw quarterly. People stopped being Gold Members.

Now, so many people are leaving the brand the Gold Membership is very small and not even paying for the Prize Draw – even though I buy the prizes at trade price, call in favours from Dealers, and also keep ‘raiding’ my personal collection to make the numbers up. It’s just not adding up any more.

Sadly there’s so little money in used B&O now it’s getting to the point it’d be better off getting a job, plus I have a mortgage to pay as well as ludicrous energy bills. I truly love this site and it’s part of my life (and has been for 20 years now), but I cannot afford to be subsidising it out of my own increasingly shallow pockets. 🙁

So, I have two suggestions…

1. Make the Prize Draw Bi-Annual. Once in Summer, and once at Christmas. I will keep the Gold Membership the same as it was in 2003. at £30. As long as people keep renewing their Gold Memberships. Hopefully we can then stay at break-even, or a very small loss.
2. We can scrap the Prize Draw altogether. Gold Membership will disappear, and we can look at other ways to raise funds to pay for the server costs and power costs like maintaining Silver Membership for now then thinking of a different way of paying for the site.

Now… Can I categorically say here that without Keith Saunders doing the huge amount of back end work, maintaining and hosting the server at his own home to save money, correcting code, custom writing patches and fixes, scanning and uploading manuals and making sure on a daily basis that we don’t get hacked FOR NOTHING this site would be gone. Totally gone. A distant memory.

There’s no way I could pay for what Keith does, for free – so we all quite literally owe this site to him, not me. If Keith walked away, BeoWorld would have to close – immediately.

So, I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on this if possible. You are paying members, and at the end of the day you will make or break this site as every penny you contribute goes towards keeping this site on the internet.

Kindest Regards

Lee

 

 

 

 

 

[billbriscoe]

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for all you’ve done over the years! And many thanks also to Keith for keeping the site up and running in spite of all the crazy hackers out there!

How about just an annual Prize Draw with an increase in membership fees to keep the site going?

I made a donation and I would hope that many others will do the same. We all learn and gain an immeasurable amount of useful knowledge to keep our units alive.

Many thanks again to you and Keith!

Bill

[sajpratty]

Hi Lee,

On the Prize Draw, I confess I stopped following this regularly when it went from monthly to quarterly. It’s gob-smackingly nice to win something but really it’s just the icing on the cake. I’d say do it just for Christmas. As for the prizes themselves, maybe go a little cheaper?

On Keith Saunders, I have run mail and web services on a rack of ThinkPads in the corner of my living room so I know how much work it entails – way more than anyone understands. On top of that is the pressure of something that runs in public, not to mention the electric bills. There also comes a point when techie enthusiasm gets ground down by the sheer weight of bad actors on the Internet. I gave up in the end and put it all on Google Workspace, got my life back, and never regretted it for a second.

On membership in general and Gold in particular, I joined up when I was building my collection and needed the advice and manuals. These days, not so much but I figure it’s like an insurance policy – if something breaks down I’m not left high and dry. I won’t be leaving the site and I might even weather a small price increase.

Steve

[deaddruid]

Just a thought, but how about encouraging donations by adding a “Buy Lee and Keith a coffee” button at the top of every page?

Mark

[pepps]

Hello Lee,

I love being part of this forum. The support and discussions are worth a fee alone.

I would be happy to pay £35 per year – a bi-annual prize draw would be nice. Or a Christmas one. I’m easy on that.

Someone earlier on in the thread mentioned a ‘club night’ somewhere to meet face to face and chat B&O.
This sounds fun!

It’s tricky to suggest ways to generate revenue. Do we know how many members we have who would buy full membership? And do we know how much additional non-member traffic we have?

The donation button is a good idea.

The beauty of this forum is in the technical knowledge we all share (to varying levels).

Is there any benefit to starting to keep ‘chat’ to general posts but maybe add a fee to access the workbench or a dedicated solutions area?

Julian

[matador]

Hi everyone,

As a bronze member, a “leecher” so to say, I feel now like being part of the problem.
Nevertheless, here are my thoughts, in random order and unrelated one with the others:

I’m not a new member anymore but I’m not an old either: it has been a lot Beoworld history before me. But I still can feel the difference between before and now. The other day, a member used the word “moribund” about a topic and it struck me because it is what I feel about the whole forum. Lots of valuable members have left to others places and they have taken with them a little bit of the “soul” of Beoworld. They are now a lot of questions that remain unanswered when it’s obvious that is that or that other member were still there they would have helped. This, and some other little things make that Beoworld may have lost a part of it’s shine: you used to go on BW because it was THE place, now you just google your problem and sometimes you end on BW, sometimes not…

When I came here, at first I didn’t subscribe as Gold or Silver because I didn’t knew what I was buying. Things to be said, they are a lot of manuals available all around the internet, the most commons, then why would I pay for this not even knowing what was available? With the time I’ve learned that the database is far beyond what available elsewhere with a huge amount of document. But then, life made that I just cannot afford the little luxury of the membership fee. So I try to contribute as I can, helping members when I can, posting content if it can be useful and moderating to help Keith as little as it can help.

To me increasing the membership fee or closing some features to free members will just kill Beoworld. If we were in the times where all the knowledge was here, perhaps it could have work, but today, I don’t think that people will pay. And I’m afraid that Beoworld could become an old private club with old members always telling the same old stories until they die. And people will seek help elsewhere.

On the same note I also like to add that for new members, it is not very clear who’s who: the tag line “founder member” is confusing and I personally still not understand who has made BW, who’s running it, who’s funding it and who’s just a partner. Maybe have a little history about that could make the new-coming members realize why BW is so special.

I’ve indeed always wondered how the prize draw could exist, even more when you look at some prizes (A9, BL8000, etc…). What’s magical about it is that you always know someone close that win and it make it a real value. But in rough times and given what Lee told us (he barely buy the prize which is own money), I would just suspend it until weather is better.

There is something nobody’s talk about and maybe because it’s a dirty word but I will say it : advertisement. Yes one of the privilege of Beoworld is not having ads. But I rather a Beoworld with ads than no Beoworld at all. I don’t know if B&O make affiliation or I dont know how it’s called technically, But if each time a member buy a Theatre, a Stage, or any speaker, Beoworld could have receive little part just because of a banner or a little ad on that desperately empty gray zone, I wouldn’t mind.

Well there is so much to say still but I realize my post is already long so that’s it for now.

Thank you Keith, Lee, Steve, all the members that help and keep the forum alive and active.
Lets hope BW will last long.

 

 

[jbarhydt]

Lee and Keith – big thanks for what you’ve done to keep this forum going. And Steve, thanks for your sponsorship; you’ve been fantastic to work with over the years. I learned about you when I joined the forum. As the closest dealer to my home is a 6 hour drive, Beoworld has become my go-to resource not only for technical advice, but to learn more about the capabilities of the equipment that I have.

I don’t participate in social media platforms with three exceptions; Beoworld and two other automotive forums. Both of the automotive forums ask for donations or membership fees to remain viable. When I joined BeoWorld, I selected Gold for access to the brain-trust and to support the forum. I didn’t pay attention to the prize draw until I won.

I’d consider adding a premium level that is closer to $100 USD annually, and perhaps make this new level eligible for more premium benefits – wiring schematics, access to B&O experts, and perhaps the drawing if you decide to keep it. Perhaps a membership fee funded drawing each Christmas is enough. More frequent drawings could be funded by a raffle entry fee that is in addition to the membership fee.

Whatever the decision regarding the drawing, to me keeping the forum financially healthy is more important than the drawings.

Thanks again for all that you do for us.

 

[MJBeo]

Thank you Lee, Keith!

I became a gold member immediately after I found this site 12? years ago, first for the prices but because I never won any of the prices I almost stopped believing the draw was real (I know it is of course but lost my interest). But now I renew my membership because I think this resource should stay online. I revisit the archived forum often as I am an old MCL fan, but when I upgrade to newer stuf I also want to be able to access Beoworld.

So I will keep my membership, to sponsor the site. Not for the prices. I would vote for an annual Christmas draw with just three good prices. Perhaps the dealer network can help sponsor this?

[YannChris]

Hi Lee, Keith and all Beoworlders,

First of all, a million thank-you to Lee and Keith who struggle to keep Beoworld running. Please accept the testimony of all my gratitude for the invaluable work you have been doing for so many years.

When I joined in 2007, I was really happy to find a website dedicated to one of my passions.

Even more, I found here an inexhaustible source of knowledge and very pleasant dialogues shared worldwide.

Finally, while the level of so many forums approach that of the sewer, I have always found interesting and “civilized” people here. Voices sometimes rise, but always with respect for others and without personal offenses.

Perhaps a side-effect of our common passion.

So gold membership was an evidence… and prize draw the icing on the cake!!

Time has passed and things are getting tougher for most of us. I perfectly understand why change is bound to come.

So, I will also keep my membership as a contribution to the community.

One or 2 prize draws per year would be ok for me.

If Beoworld can find some sponsors, why not as long as the site keeps it’s freedom.

Long life to Beoworld!

And thanks again to Lee and Keith.

Yann.

[Denisc]

Hello Lee and Keith,

Thank you for everything you have done.

Bang & Olufsen wanted an elitist policy on its products, without being the best in terms of sound but the most expensive, aiming for the big fortunes and forgetting its often much less well-off brand followers, thus losing its sales heart, Beoworld undergoes this policy; unfortunately, I think that the survival of Beoworld requires an increase in contributions and if possible donations from the richest (they are not the most generous).

Wishing you all the best for the three of you (Lee, Keith and Beoworld)

[Ferdinand]

Hi Lee and others,

Agreeing to all that has been said,

YES to bi annual price draw

YES to increase of fee for membership.

my personal reason for not being so active is the unfortunate forum change, i browsed the forum often during my commute much more previously (also pre covid when there was a commute)

keep up the good work, it is appreciated.

[gwerl]

I joined this forum as a gold member because I had acquired a Beocenter 8000 in need of restoration. The site proved to be essential in that work, providing schematics as well as help from other forum members. (The 8000 is now fully restored, I use it every day.)

I was recently a drawing winner (to my pleasant surprise), a Beoplay bluetoooth speaker.

Allthough the drawing is a “perk” to membership, the value of membership is in the information the site provides.

My intention is to stay a gold member, with or without the drawing. I am also open to increases in membership cost (as long as they are not exorbitant).

The site is well worth it.

GHW

[patcherley]

Firstly, thanks to Lee and Keith not just for keeping the site going but for their help in resolving problems. I took out a Gold membership because I was using the site a lot and felt I should contribute, a prize would be nice but have not had one so won’t actually miss. Though the prize draw is always worth looking forward to. I would be happy to pay a higher membership fee and have a bi-annual or annual draw if that keeps the site valid. For comparison my other hobby is just about keeping a 1985 Renault 5 Gordini Turbo on the road and a replacement battery has just cost me £60 including delivery so £30 for helping keep this site running is good value. Paul

[Madskp]

Hello Lee. I have been a Gold member at least since 2009 acording to my mail history, but probably longer since I switched Email provider at one point. But have been looking arround Beoworld since the early days. Don’t remember why I started being a gold member, but for one thing I think the price draw was a tipping point at that time, and I also won two times some years back.

Now however the prize draw is not the main point for me. I just want to support the site, and all the work that’s being done to keep it running. Thanks Keith.

A bonus is of course acces to the user and service manuals which is gold worth for people who are reparing and/or tinkering with B&O gear, and as a mean to get some og the threads running.

I can however see how people who come with a specific question for example regarding cabling to get their equipment runnning, and then dont need more information, because their setup just works, dont see the benefit for the gold membership.

Reduction of prize draws is fine with me. The number of prizes per draw could also be limited to maybe one. The chances of winning is still high. At the very end you should not pay for it yourself.

Other than that i think as other also has suggested that more visibility about the benefits of gold member ship on the front page, and a more visible donation button, and maybe some kind of add’s even though its wonderfull with a part of the internet without it. But if that can keep the boat floating im fine with it.

[Evan]

Hey Lee –

First of all, good to see you are still poking around! I am very appreciative for your efforts in running BeoWorld. This platform helped me discover and develop a subject I have become quite passionate about – it has literally changed my life. For that I will always be grateful. As well there’s no doubt that Keith is an absolute legend and powerhouse making it all work.

The diehard enthusiasts will always be here, you can count on us. In my experience, the BeoCommunity used to be very centralized around BeoWorld in its 2007-2012 iteration (maybe a few more years after that). The seemingly endless number of FB groups/pages seem to have been the main undoing of the traffic we used to see at BW. BeoWorld will always be the place I go to share, though.

I think a price increase is overdue for Gold members but I can see how that might drive membership down even further. Chicken and egg indeed.

I also see the identity of the Prize Draw (and sir BottsWorth himself) are part of the BeoWorld brand, to lose it would be like losing part of BeoWorld. How many forums do you know do this?? Truly unique. However, I understand that we can’t live in fantasy land anymore. I agree with MM on maybe working the sponsorship angle more or attempting to find a way to subsidize somehow so you aren’t footing the bill yourself.

Evan

 

[Tignum]

Keith, Lee, Dillen, Guy, Matador, Steve (and all others rowing the Beoworld boat), thanks a lot for doing so. The forum is addictive to me! Already for years. And though I am not fixing BeoGrams or finetuning Theatres, I really enjoy checking in with almost all threads every day. I was sad when it was down for some time, ha. My Masterlink system would not be working so nicely without information and help provided through Beoworld. And where I could, I hope to have helped some others with some tips, which can be satisfying, especially when it helps. My Gold membership is here to stay for now, irrespective of the number of prize draws. And also if the price needs to go up a bit from the VERY friendly 30 pounds. I know there is no other comparison but for me, in hours of entertainment per pound, Beoworld beats Netflix easily. All the best, Johan.

[Steve at Sounds Heavenly]

Hi Lee and Keith,

As the sole remaining sponsor of the site, may I also put on record my thanks to you both for all you do and have done to keep this amazing B&O community resource alive. I greatly enjoy my regular online chats with other Beoworlders about all things B&O and it has been a true pleasure to meet some of the B&O community in real life whilst on my travels.

I agree that the Beoworld community and membership has changed enormously in the 14 years that I have sponsored this site and I think this is largely due to the changes in B&O that Lee mentioned. I want to stay supporting this site for many years to come, so I think it is very wise to have this discussion now in the hope that Beoworld can find a way to grow going forward.

As a past prize draw winner, I confess to being very excited about the draws and the chance to win interesting B&O goodies, but if this risks driving Beoworld out of existence then it needs a re-think. Lee has done a brilliant job finding, funding and presenting the draws for many years, but this does need to be something that the site itself can support.

I would be happy to continue supporting the site, both as a gold member and as a sponsor, if the prize draws aren’t able to continue (or if they are reduced). However, I would welcome views from other members so that we can see the wider view.

Thanks again to Lee, Keith and to all the Beoworlders who make this site such a great community!

Kind regards, Steve.

[Madskp]

Madskp wrote:

and maybe some kind of add’s even though its wonderfull with a part of the internet without it. But if that can keep the boat floating im fine with it.

An option for add’s could also be that paying members would not see the add’s

[chartz]

Hi Lee,

A tough one. We were all afraid this day would eventually come. Here it is.

I became a Gold Member mainly because I wanted to be part of the B&O community and because I needed the service manuals. I still do!

Then, providing help to other members has been a joy too, although these days, I have too much to do to do so on a regular basis.

Like Evan, B&O and Beoworld are part of what I am now. The now proverbial beovirus we invented here is real. There is no cure.

The Prize Draw has of course always been a welcome bonus, which I was lucky enough to win three times over the years.

I’ll continue to pay my fee, whatever you decide, and two draws a year suits me just fine, if you can cover the expense with what we pay for the subscription.

So thank you Lee and Keith (and Steve).

Jacques aka Chartz since 2009, not going anywhere.

 

[trackbeo]

I paid membership fee once just to get a service manual. I felt prize drawing was worthless in the USA because shipping would cost more than the value of the item, and it was likely to arrive as scraps of metal and shards of glass anyway. So I stopped paying after getting the manual and just “donated” time, giving answers to newbies that the old-guard — who had true technical knowledge — couldn’t be bothered typing for the Nth time over&over again (which seems entirely appropriate).

Mybe you could change Gold to paywall manuals, and make Silver paywall the Archives? See americastestkitchen.com for an example of how Cooks Illustrated made “freely available” recipes that aren’t really freely available except to subscribers, yet have google hits that somehow show excerpts with the hit text un-ellided. The archives would otherwise show up as 3-line “abstracts” with blurred-out long text. (Yikes, sorry for more work, Keith!)

Or maybe you could blast-mail B&O dealerships, who are theoretically independent, asking each for a modest donation as a public service? Renew annually, asking again. The value of keeping even a few customers out of their hair is a couple hundred or so per dealer, without even thinking about it.

Free ideas, worth every penny. Not free to make happen, alas. But some management consultant would say you should capitalize on your existing relationships: You already know a great many people, and making that pay off is easier (in theory) than striking new deals. Another idea is harder to implement but I’ll throw it out just in case it triggers something: “Form a partnership with youth.” How that applies here I have no idea, but it’s axiomatic in some circles.

[Author]

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